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mk_79

VR Hedset possibilities ad 2020

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Hi,

Two years ago I was able to test HTC Vive and I was quite impressed how the technology was able to create a feeling of being inside of 3D engine environment. It was much more then I was expecting.

But the rest of the equipment did not fit my idea of VR gaming experience. I did not understand the purpose of involving the rest of your body to participate in it.

I did not understand the reason behind room scanning, moving around while playing, hands waving etc.

I thought I would be able to have headset (as an PC monitor substitute), comfortable chair, hands comfortably lying on my desk operating mouse and keyboard. So I could play my favorite games (of course FPP view is a must).

I know that back then it wasn't possible due to the hardware limitations and lack of supporting m+k titles.

How does it look today? Does any one have experience that would like to share?

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I'm sorry to tell you You still need some tracking even for a face mounted monitor, unless you're very very lucky you'll experience motion sickness while moving your head and not seeing movement in a HMD

To a certain degree you'd probably want the headset to control where you look, and maybe the mouse to do fine control for shooting, while using yet more controls for turning which way your player is facing (so you can strafe and turn with one hand).

But really even if the headset could offer what you're asking for the games aren't set up for those inputs. I don't think there are many if any titles that support VR and m+k that support both simultaneously.

You'll also probably be disappointed by the step-down in resolution in some respects if you're treating VR like a monitor replacement, VR really isn't there yet for a number of reasons.

Your best bet would probably be the basic cosmos though -> no lighthouses and facing your desk there'll be plenty of things to track, but I really fear that you won't really be buying the experience you're after, and maybe having controllers and options to move around would bring you "to the dark side" since one of the most immersive aspects of VR is interacting with things using the hand-waving and body moving stuffs.

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Hi Johny,

Thank you for replay.

I have no problem with tracking the headset. On the contrary, I hope that's how looking around would work. I was playing for over an hour and I'm the lucky one because my brain has no problem at all. Mouse can be replaced by controller bot not keyboard.

"But really even if the headset could offer what you're asking for the games aren't set up for those inputs. I don't think there are many if any titles that support VR and m+k that support both simultaneously."

I have absolutely no idea why VR sets doesn't support at least two modes (room / chair). I would say it is even logical if you are siting at your desk and playing an FPP game the last thing you want to do is waving your hands in the air for 5-6 hours 😉

"You'll also probably be disappointed by the step-down in resolution in some respects if you're treating VR like a monitor replacement, VR really isn't there yet for a number of reasons."

I have tested HTC and one console set and I'm aware of disadvantages. The illusion created by the headset compensate it all.

"...one of the most immersive aspects of VR is interacting with things using the hand-waving and body moving stuffs."

And that's the point that some PC players will disagree with you. I was almost convinced till I have tried it by my self. I understand those features you are talking about have a lot of enthusiasts, especially among children but not for me. And reading lots of comments on internet you will see that I'm not the only one. I have seen entire constructions for walking and running with VR sets and for me it is just ridiculous.

I'm still hoping that VR sets will provide mode that is focused on comfort and least physical activity possible. If not today, than i guess i will have to wait 😞

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Oh they have three modes, sitting, standing and room-scale, but even so the games aren't designed for keyboards. And the games that are designed for keyboards don't always port well to VR. There are ways to pass through your screen to the HMD but the resolution is reduced and like with an IRL screen there's boundaries.

I'm 300lb on a good day so I hope too that there will be more sedentary VR games in the future but right now I wouldn't want to be in VR for more than 90 minutes at a time anyway, the HMD can start to strain my neck so I need to decompress a bit, and I know it gets hot even sitting down and floating through google earth VR so I need a drink at least that often. There's no way that you'll be in VR for 5-6 hours at a time that's an unrealistic expectation with the current technology, it might be how you're used to enjoying some titles but not VR. That said I expect the more chilled out games to come from console not PC, there the motion controllers are entirely optional so the game makers will plan to make games that work with a HMD and only a normal controller and the developers might make those cames from the couch controller paradigm they're used to. PSVR therefore might actually be a better way to look for the more sit down VR games.

I am a PC gamer, the only console I ever owned was a second hand Wii that I got mainly to try hacking the Wiimotes. I have played minecraft and factorio for thousands of hours each and I like the more Puzzly FPS games like Portal and Antichamber, but I've played fallout and fable, Civ and so on too. I waited a long while from first trying the Oculus dev kit in 2014 to believing VR was ready for me to play with. I completely understand the desire to want to play all your favourite games in VR for the immersion aspect alone, the two games I can directly compare between PC and VR are minecraft and Portal 2. Both are better in VR but I wouldn't play them in VR if I couldn't interact with the world using the controllers, if I'm using a k+m setup then I'd rather just use a screen because I've already been taken out of the world. I thought something very similar to the way you're thinking about VR when thinking about buying a projector a few years ago, and don't get me wrong I loved having my projector for films but I stopped use if for gaming at all after the novelty ran out, it's more immersive in many respects but It was a pain to get set up and again it rans hot, but the biggest barrier to play was that my computer chair was always closer and more comfy than my couch.

You might think a mouse and keyboard offers you all the freedoms you could want but in VR it doesn't, a mouse has 3 dimensions of freedom, forward/backward, left/right and the scroll wheel, and the keyboard only has 2, W/S and A/D yes using all of them together you can have full freedom to move and manipulate your character or an object and with buttons you can switch what you're controlling and how, console controllers manage the same even without the scroll wheel. But VR offers you instantly 18 different dimensions of freedom for you to see and manipulate the world, your head and each hand can move left/right, forward/backward, up/down, and each can twist/turn on each of those axis independently. So while you may be down on buttons to press cause you're down to 2 types of click per hand and a track pad you end up in more control of your character and environment. So long as there's reasonable mapping for inventory access you won't long for keyboard controls for long either. For the vast majority of PC games you'll play with only 4-10 buttons, 123 for quick access to specific things, q to drop something e for inventory, space to jump, shift to sneak, then left and right click for different actions depending on your held item, all of these can be mapped to controllers. That said I rather hope that we can move to other ways to access inventory items than menus though, Half Life Alyx puts Ammo in her backpack by putting a controller over either shoulder, i'd almost be happy with that as an access and retrieval point for items and if I could say the name of an item I want (since I can't feel around in my bag) to bring that item to hand would be fantastic.

You don't need, and I wouldn't recommend going really excessive with walking or running rigs you really don't need that at all, it might be cool technology for VR Parlours but it's not necessary for any VR game. The hand-waving and body moving stuffs that make a huge difference for immersion aren't the big shouty things, I mean the simple things like being able to pick up a piece of VR debris from a table and study and manipulate it as though it's real, no matter what you do or how clever you map the controls you can't emulate that feeling of "this item is actually in my hand" with k+m, and it's not a big wave your arms about movement it's a simple natural gesture.

A great look at what I mean by this is the game Rick and Morty: Virtual Rickality you can wave your hands about in the air like a mad person but the controls are such that you don't need to walk around much if at all, you could probably play the game from a spinning chair with your elbows glued to the armrests, yet there's a million small things you can do that would be flattened by a k+m setup.

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"I'm 300lb on a good day so I hope too that there will be more sedentary VR games..."
Before current situation I had my crossfit trainings 3 times a week, and I'm quite feat. So no, laziness is not the reason behind my preferences 😉

"There's no way that you'll be in VR for 5-6 hours..."

You will be surprised (16h in front of a monitor? back in a day it was not even a challenge).

"the two games I can directly compare between PC and VR are minecraft and Portal 2. Both are better in VR but I wouldn't play them in VR if I couldn't interact with the world using the controllers,"

I would not play those games even if i could control them with my mind. I was thinking about something ambitious, with open world LIKE the witcher, mass effect (if FPP was available), maybe fallout if it was not made by bathesda or something like deus ex, system shock/bioshock. In my humble opinion TPP limits immersiveness more than kayboard for VR.

"...But VR offers you instantly 18 different dimensions of freedom for you to see and manipulate the world, your head and each hand can move left/right, forward/backward, up/down, and each can twist/turn on each of those axis independently"

And that is exactly what I am not looking for. I represent a group of people that do not understand why any one thinks that has anything to do with reality/immersiveness while we see it only as ridicules. Same with 3D or even XD cinemas that i just don't get it (yes, I tried them too). Seems like VR industry doesn't understand that sometimes simple solutions are much better then those complex ones.

"I mean the simple things like being able to pick up a piece of VR debris from a table and study and manipulate it as though it's real, no matter what you do or how clever you map the controls you can't emulate that feeling of "this item is actually in my hand" with k+m, and it's not a big wave your arms about movement it's a simple natural gesture."

No it is not, it is not even close. You are not picking up things in real life by holding silly controllers in your hands. If you could trick your brain like that, maybe it would have some meaning, but that would be a different technology, probably not involving any headset 😉

I do not see any problem by approaching an object with (WSAD/space bar/crt/c/z etc.) and picking up by pressing e/f or whatever you like. Not only it is automatic at some point, but when you are playing games you do not even notice it. I'm perfectly fine operating my sword by pressing button on mouse/controller rather swinging my arms in the air for no practical reason, even with all the obvious limitation. Why? Because it is more convenient. If that simple solution was provided in games I would buy entire VR set even though I wouldn't be using half of the junk coming with it.

"...yet there's a million small things you can do that would be flattened by a k+m setup."

I know, you do no have to explain me the basics, I just don't need those features for GAMING, and I'm not the only one.

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I don't mean I'm looking to be lazy or implying you do, just that I understand the value of being able to enjoy media without getting up

The experience in VR is very different, A HMD can draw as much as 5 watts of power, it doesn't seem like a lot but it can get to being radiator strapped to your face after just an hour. The same seals that keep the outside world away from VR lock the heat to your face. I get the appeal of enjoying 16 hours of Computer time without much of a break, a HMD is not comparable. I'm not saying this as as challenge I'm saying it because I don't want you to buy into VR with that 5-6 hours at a time expectation, hurt yourself and blame VR for it.

Like I said those were the two I can directly compare between VR and PC. I used them as points of reference not suggestions. I get the TPP vs FPP argument but you can do that without strapping a monitor to your face. There are games that you can play FPP without VR, adding VR to them is more than simply adjusting the field of view and resolution.

I do get what you're saying though. I for the longest time didn't see the point in upgrading to HDMI from SVGA, there was nothing that a small bump in resolution could add to the imersiveness of the games I played. I get too that you don't need to have FPP or VR for imeresiveness, Factorio is a 2.5D game that's so ridiculously addictive and sucks you in that many players have experiences where they start playing in the evening and then blink check the clock and realise it's 4AM and they've been playing for 8 hours. I even get what you mean with cinemas, I wouldn't go XD, I enjoy 3D but it's not a necessity, I've watched things in "4D" where they spray water or air at you or tilt the seats and I don't see the point of that at all. I'll go so far as to say I find Cartoons are generally more immersive for me than live action stuff. Being realistic is not the same as immersive. I understand that.

But what is the immersive draw of VR? Being in the world? Yes but being in the world to many VR players and developers means your touch and movements having direct impact on the world, using k+m when there's this more visceral option is less than ideal. I know on one level I'm holding a controller and pulling the trigger when I pick up say a piece of paper, but it really feels like I'm holding it not because my hand feels the same as if I were holding a real piece of paper but because I can feel that my arm is positioned the same as my character's and that any little movements I could make with my arm are directly translated to the virtual piece of paper, I can without learning any special commands bring it to my face to have a closer look, turn it over or upside down, look at it from an oblique angle or anything I can imagine doing with a real sheet of paper, Even tear it, fold it or screw it up in some VR games. Like I say there may be ways to do all this with a keyboard and mouse, but it's so much more intuitive and natural in VR that having to learn these controls for a VR game actually breaks immersion. If you play on a screen then VR is an upgrade, if you play in VR bringing the k+m factor to the game is so much of a downgrade from all the other games that implement VR with controllers that those HMD+k+m games for me would be like trying to play while handcuffed, almost by definition an unwelcome handicap and less fun. 

So why are there none of these really ambitious games in VR yet? Is it because there's no audience? No, you clearly exist. But it might be because it's not worth making a game like that right now because the audience potential is too small. Right now there's (a minimum of) 30k ish people who own VR (based on the number of people who've reviewed beat saber on steam it might be 2x that or 10x that but 30k seems like a good number to work with) the vast majority of them play VR games that interact with the game world by picking things up, by walking or teleporting around, a set of common controls like WASD that are so instinctive that you don't need to even learn them you do them automatically within minutes of being in VR. It wouldn't take much effort to imagine that few VR players can sit at a desk and type while blindfolded or be able to reach for their mouse without glancing at it. VR controllers can be embodied as part of the game world by looking like your character's hands or something they're holding, your chair and keyboard and mouse can not. So for the vast majority of these players VR with k+m is not a game they would buy, some might but it'd be a small fraction. On the other side you have all the people who play those ambitious games with a normal screen, asking them to leap to VR by taking away the screen option while keeping k+m controls is like adding $1000 to the price tag of the game. If you're an ambitious AAA title that's almost suicide, Valve have done it with Half Life Alyx, but they also don't force you to use k+m controls. So adding even limited VR support for the game is almost exclusively going to lose you money, it costs money (lets say 1000 hours at $50 per hour) for it to be added, tested and all the bugs ironed out, but you don't really add any appeal to your game on the whole, the people who would buy the VR to play it would probably buy it without VR support, and the people with VR who might buy it is too small a pool of players to add such features. To pay for it you require at the bare minimum 10% of players who already have VR already to want to buy it when they wouldn't have without VR support which is a ridiculous notion. I think the only reason why there is the one big game, Half Life Alyx, is because for valve it's a loss leader, they can use it to get more people into Steam VR and sell them more VR games, all of which adds to their bottom line, even if they only make 10% back on the cost of the game through game sales they'll make much more through selling the index and licencing to HTC for the Cosmos and Vive pro, and there'll be a dozen game sales for each sold console over the next year too making up for it.

What you're asking for isn't going to be around until VR has over a million players unless people like you passion project it yourselves. Every game that exists right now is either aimed at mass market appeal (beat saber, blade and sorcery, rick and morty virtual rickality, superhot, horseshoes hotdogs and hand grenades), test projects that're very small on the scale of the companies making them and designed to lose money while giving that company's developers the chance to expand their skills into VR for future projects (google earth VR, autodesk VR), passion projects by independent developers (Hyperbolica by Coding Parade (coming soon), Non-Euclidean Virtual Reality by Sabetta Matsumoto, Avatar the last Airbender game by Elca, Stage9 or Orville by messy desk interactive and many more) or they're hyper niche but expensive for what they are (VR Kanojo).

I can see your point that you don't need the fancy hand controls to be immersive or to game but right now, to me, VR is the whole package, it's not your head in a screen it's all the controller stuff too. Anything you can play like that can be played without the need of VR at all. 

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SteamVR saw upwards of 2 million + connected headsets in April 2020 and that's just one VR ecosystem. That said, the PS4 install base is over 100m units - the total buy-in for the hardware is dramatically less than PCVR. VR is expensive - it's in a relatively good place right now considering where we were only 5 years ago. It will take time for a thriving developer and consumer ecosystem to grow - it remains to be seen how COVID will slow or accelerate XR's growth trajectory. 

You can SteamVR theater mode or apps like bigscreen/remote desktop for 2D theater gaming modes. You can use an Xbox controller instead of KB/M in a ton of flat games - and can always use mods/tools to try and add unofficial support. The majority of people do not like using KB/M in VR and I am inclined to agree with them. I'm all in on motion controls.

I think the gaming community is extremely guilty of stagnation - PC and console gamers often want the exact same thing year over year and it inhibits the adoption of newer and more advanced technologies like motion controls. There are literally tens of thousands of FPS's now with little variety in the core gameplay - alot of the gaming ecosystem is pretty generic or are strong IP's that don't iterate much on the core mechanics. Alot of VR developers are tying to do something different - it's one of the few wild west's out there right now and I strongly believe the innovations occurring in this ecosystem will become the norm.

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"..The experience in VR is very different, A HMD can draw as much as 5 watts of power, it doesn't seem like a lot but it can get to being radiator strapped to your face after just an hour."
Try to convince a guy that is driving on a highway in the middle of the summer wearing black leather suit and full heavy motorcycle helmet that you don't recommend it 😉

"...But what is the immersive draw of VR? Being in the world? Yes but being in the world to many VR players and developers means your touch and movements having direct impact on the world, using k+m when there's this more visceral option is less than ideal..."

But it is much more comfortable and practical, at least for the purpose I described above.

"So why are there none of these really ambitious games in VR yet? Is it because there's no audience? No, you clearly exist. But it might be because it's not worth making a game like that right now because the audience potential is too small."

This is a very good point. But are you sure about your diagnose? Maybe the design is going in a wrong direction? Maybe the industry is trying to do something that is not possible (at least at this point)? Or maybe, as you mentioned the licensing is an problem? Or maybe all of those problems and many other makes this device not as popular as it could be, and games not as good as you would expected? It is not the price as VibrantNebula suggested. The HTC set prcie is actually quite good, especially compering to the rest of the PC hardware these days. And if it was more customizable on the software level I wouldn't even hesitate.
I do understand the economy/revenue situation. But can you imagine that for example, only fast-foods would be operating, only because majority thinks it is tasty, cheap and better 😉

"I can see your point that you don't need the fancy hand controls to be immersive or to game but right now, to me, VR is the whole package, it's not your head in a screen it's all the controller stuff too. Anything you can play like that can be played without the need of VR at all."

That is just subjective opinion of yours.

@VibrantNebula

"I think the gaming community is extremely guilty of stagnation - PC and console gamers often want the exact same thing year over year and it inhibits the adoption of newer and more advanced technologies like motion controls."

I'm sorry but you wrong. Newer and more advance doesn't automatically make something better. There are tons of example if you are paying attention regarding history of technology. I can agree with you that motion controller, "gun" for example is way better than mouse in a game like Battlefield, but still you need to swiftly move your avatar in a comfortable for your body way. I know that people plays BF on consoles using game-pads, but it is like driving a bike with those tiny extra wheels in the back - and boy, how happy those children are 😉

"Alot of VR developers are tying to do something different - it's one of the few wild west's out there right now and I strongly believe the innovations occurring in this ecosystem will become the norm."

I hope they realize that PC gamers like to have a choice and that we won't be neglected just because being smaller market 😞

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"Try to convince a guy that is driving on a highway in the middle of the summer wearing black leather suit and full heavy motorcycle helmet that you don't recommend it"
Motor cycle helmet is not a fair comparison. 1 a motorcycle helmet is more evenly distributed weight and while riding partially supported by the collarbone. 2 it's a safety item not a toy. 3 It doesn't actively blast your eyeballs with heat. instead they're effectively cooled by the apparent wind of riding even without fans which most modern helmets have. How about this analogy? A welder uses 3600 watts, so for every hour you spend in VR is equivalent to looking into a welding arc for 5 seconds with no face shield.

"But it is much more comfortable and practical, at least for the purpose I described above."
That is just subjective opinion of yours.

"and games not as good as you would expected?"
Are you kidding? Even the worst games I've played in VR are better than the average not VR games I've played.

"The HTC set price is actually quite good, especially compering to the rest of the PC hardware these days."
You can buy 2 "good enough" PCs for the vast majority of games to be playable for the price of most PC VR headsets. Your PC might cost more than that, but the average player's PC looks like this: 
Windows 10, 3GHz intel CPU, 8GB Ram, GTX1060 6GB VRAM, you will get better fidelity games on more expensive hardware but you don't need it. A PC even a dedicated gaming PC isn't going to do just gaming for it's whole life, you'll get 2 years out of it, and then you might upgrade parts or do a whole refresh, and the old parts will (if you're like me) end up in other computers or even as an intact second computer to watch videos on or do office work with. Or give to some kid in your family who wants to play games but doesn't need a $2000 rig. You don't have to justify the cost of any single component against just a handful of games, getting into PC VR is almost like buying a games console, it has it's own ecosystem, most of the games you own won't play on it so you'll have to buy new ones, and the hardware will only be used for games for it's whole life and more likely than not you won't try to sell it or pass it on because when you're upgrading it you'll be doing it because either it's broken or the whole ecosystem is having a refresh to updated hardware. In that context a VR headset is like buying both an Xbox and a Play Station brand new, at their launches PS4 was $400 and Xbox One X was $500 while the original Vive was $800. 

"And if it was more customizable on the software level I wouldn't even hesitate."
You can always program your own software for it, it's just another PC component.

"But can you imagine that for example, only fast-foods would be operating, only because majority thinks it is tasty, cheap and better"
No I can't, but I also wouldn't expect someone to open a gormet fried chicken restaurant next door to a, serve the same KFC chicken from next door just on a fancy plate and get away with charging 10 times the price.

"I think the gaming community is extremely guilty of stagnation - PC and console gamers often want the exact same thing year over year"
This is exactly right, it's got to the point where there's whole gaming industries based on being copycat games. Everything from Call of Duty to Minecraft, Tetris to Bejewelled, Firewatch to Starcraft, Sim City to Theme Park World, DOTA to Cookie Clicker have spawned clones or sequels that don't fundamentally change the essence of the underlying game they just reskin the mechanics with a new story or new graphics. Almost all of the best PC games that exist right now are from a handful of concepts that have been remixed or are sequels. Fallout 3 was a sequel and everything in new vagas, 4 and 76 were iterative, 
deus ex is fundamentally a Final Fantasy game with a new skin, Fable 3, Call of Duty Warzone, Grand Theft Auto, Terraria, Animal Crossing, Doom Eternal, God of War, Portal 2, Overwatch, Dark Souls, Planet Coaster, Factorio. Even minecraft that's stand out one of the most original games of this millennium is essentially Lego. 

"but still you need to swiftly move your avatar in a comfortable for your body way"
Yeah we have that, on the Vive controllers there's a track pad that depending on the game and exactly how limited you are in your ability to roam can be uses as a teleporter or a joystick to glide yourself around the environment. The cosmos controllers and valve index have actual joysticks for each thumb, you can choose to sit down in some games and move only via those methods and continue using the controller like a gun even in that same hand that controls character movement. Any and all games that want you to have more space to play in than you literally have in your play space need to solve this and so it has been done. I haven't (yet) but I theoretically could play Half Life Alyx from a chair (I might go for story mode though since ducking from things flying at my face would be uncomfortable in a chair)

"I hope they realize that PC gamers like to have a choice and that we won't be neglected just because being smaller market"
Every PC VR player is a PC gamer first. It is Steam VR, to participate you need an above average PC. And VR has a lot of choice, BeatSaber, Half Life Alyx, Blade and Sorcery, Creed Rise to Glory, Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim VR, Super Hot, VR Kanojo, Abode, Hot Dogs Horseshoes and Hand Grenades, Rick and Morty Virtual Rickality, Job Simulator, Google Earth VR, Universe Sandbox VR, Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes VR, Table Top Simulator, Star Trek Bridge Crew, Kittypocolypse, Lucid and more each of these is a different genre and each is a piece of VR software that will satisfy some gamer's itch it's just that none of them offer the HDM+k+m that you want. You don't want "more choice", you want YOUR choice. Almost every title I've listed is a valid way to be a PC or VR Gamer and just like you not liking say minecraft or Portal 2 doesn't make you "not a PC gamer" you can't exclude all the people who do like playing all these PC games that you "would not play those games even if i could control them with my mind" from being a PC gamer too. PC gamers is such a big market that no singular experience can be marketed to people with that title, the smaller market is you and the people who want the HMD+k+m experience and you are a small fraction of PC gamers, you don't own the title of PC gamer, maybe to get recognition you need a separate title so developers can know who you are and what you want and if you get organised you can even look like a big enough group to cater to. How about KVM-Gamers?

"SteamVR saw upwards of 2 million + connected headsets in April 2020 and that's just one VR ecosystem."
That's so cool I hadn't realised we'd broken even a million already xD That's 10% of Steam Concurrent's as of March or 2% of xbox sales, I still think of VR as an uncommon thing, I know or know of only a handful of people who have VR in some form or another through offline connections maybe this will become more noticeable going forward.

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"But it is much more comfortable and practical, at least for the purpose I described above."
That is just subjective opinion of yours.

No, this is medical obviousness.

"No I can't, but I also wouldn't expect someone to open a gormet fried chicken restaurant next door to a, serve the same KFC chicken from next door just on a fancy plate and get away with charging 10 times the price."

As you can tell my English is far from being good, but this sentence has no meaning for me.

"This is exactly right, it's got to the point where there's whole gaming industries based on being copycat games."

You can say exactly the same about movies, music, books and many other aspects of our life. But there is always a choice.

"and games not as good as you would expected?"
Are you kidding? Even the worst games I've played in VR are better than the average not VR games I've played.

That explains a lot. We should end our discussion at this point. Thanks for your time. Enjoy your happy meal.

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